a place to put random discourses on life
When I heard that the American Athieists are suing Utah over crosses marking the spots where HP have died in the line of duty, I was floored. We are not talking about an athiest sueing because a family member was memorializd with a cross....no, they are concerned that a non-christian may be offended to see the cross and blah blah blah.... I'm astounded. I'M OFFENDED! Maybe I should sue them....

Anyway, here is a bit of background on this case and the overused phrase...."separation of church and state" We hear it all the time and there are very good explainations out there, but this one is nice and consice.


The American Atheists are suing the state of Utah over the cross markers the Utah Highway Patrol Association uses to memorialize where officers have died in the line of duty. A total of 14 such crosses can be found in Utah, and the American Atheists want them removed. Their claim: that a Jew, Muslim, or Atheist might drive by the marker and feel offended that a Christian religious symbol is being used to pay honor to someone who gave their life in that spot.
The American Atheists also want the UHP symbols taken off of the crosses, saying, "The presence of the UHP logo on a poignant religious symbol is an unconstitutional violation of the United States Constitution. It is government endorsement of religion" (source: Salt Lake Tribune).

Sgt. Todd Royce of the UHP Association—a non-profit, private organization—counters this by arguing, "The crosses are used as an international sign of memorial similar to those in Arlington National Cemetery" (source: Salt Lake Tribune).

So once again, two parties look to be headed to court to protect the right of separation of church and state. In fact, the cause of "separation of church and state" has been repeated so many times in past years that many believe those words to be written into the Constitution by our founding fathers.

Well, search all you'd like, but you won't find any such right guaranteed in the Constitution or any of the Amendments following it. The phrase "separation of church and state" loosely refers to the First Amendment, which reads:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free expression thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people to peaceably assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The first word in the Amendment is Congress and the rest of the Amendment is placing restrictions on them. Congress may not:

(1) establish a national religion,
(2) prohibit religious expression,
(3) abridge free speech,
(4) censor the press,
(5) prohibit people from peaceably assembling, or
(6) prohibit the people from petitioning a redress of grievances.

To restate, these are restrictions being placed on Congress—or national government— alone, not on individuals, companies, religions, non-profit organizations, or anyone else.

Thus, if the Ten Commandments are on display in a courthouse, have any of the rights guaranteed to Americans in the First Amendment been violated? Is Congress establishing a national religion, prohibiting religious expression, abridging free speech, censoring the press, prohibiting people from peaceably assembling, or prohibiting a redress of grievances?

Furthermore, in the above-stated case with a non-profit organization creating memorials for their members, has Congress violated the rights of the American Atheists?

If not, then there is no prima facia case to be made and the courts should find accordingly.

To take this to an extreme, there aren't even rights in the Constitution guaranteeing the people that the state they live in cannot declare a "state religion." If New York wanted to declare itself a Catholic state and had the consent of the people, it would be within its Constitutional rights to do so.

So with "separation of church and state" cases being so prevalent as of late, one must ask where is the separation of church and state guaranteed to Americans, and by whom? Who is the all-powerful, mythical "they" who have guaranteed the American people this right?

In this case, the father of this well-known phrase is Thomas Jefferson, taken from a letter he wrote to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802. The portion of the letter addressing the phrase "separation of church and state" is included below:

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

(signed) Thomas Jefferson
Jan.1.1802.


Such was the beginning of the use of the phrase "separation of church and state," which has survived more than 200 years, although the context seems to have changed somewhat.
It cannot be denied that the American Atheists, as stated in the First Amendment, have the liberty to sue the UHP Association. It is the right of Americans to sue any other American or American entity that they would like. The question one must ask is: do they really have the Constitution on their side?

Comments (Page 1)
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on Dec 08, 2005
Excellent article!  The Supreme court did pull the phrase from some of the writings of the founders, but you are correct, it is not in the Constitution.  However, the problem with the Atheists is that they have taken the tack that the first Amendment, instead of being "Freedom of Religion" has come to mean "Freedom FROM religion".  And they are becoming very petty over the whole issue.  I hope the courts smack them down, as well as Michael Newdow, and tell them to get a life.
on Dec 08, 2005
The question one must ask is: do they really have the Constitution on their side?


And I think the answer is pretty clear that, no, they do not.

Excellent posting LH, and thanks so much for pointing to that article. It is a great one and clearly states what I find so tormenting about arguments regarding 'separation of church and state'. People have so bastardized that statement that the general public no longer even really understands what it means. And the First Amendment? Even fewer people have a clue what it actually says, instead being puffed up and full of their own erroneous interpretations.

Again, thanks for posting this.
on Dec 08, 2005
I'd like to mirror the accolades above, excellent article.

Freedom from religion violates freedom of religion. You have the right to not be persecuted legally for your religious beliefs. That doesn't mean you have the right to not be confronted by an individual, with the same freedoms, for those beliefs. That's the point where you, as an individual, have the right to either engage that debate, or walk away from it.
on Dec 08, 2005
Freedom from religion violates freedom of religion.


oh, I like how you put that. and thanks all for the comments.
on Dec 08, 2005
You get an Insightful for this one LH. (That is, if I don't get an error occured on this page) Again.
Hey! It worked! you get a cookie!
on Dec 09, 2005
Great Article!!

I am against putting any "roadside memorials" up for any reason. I think they don't accomplish anything but cause traffic problems and accidents. I would be all for the Utah Highway Patrol building a memorial for their fallen (and would probably even be willing to donate to the effort).

That being said, I think the American Atheists have a lot of nerve sewing the state of Utah for crosses. This is a state where the idiots at that ACLU sued for hate mongering "ministers'" "right" to heckle weddings on private church property. Apparently to the braindead oafs calling a screaming "WHORE" at young brides is protected... but crosses are profane.

"American Atheists" how does it feel to be little more than a hate group?
on Dec 09, 2005
"American Atheists" how does it feel to be little more than a hate group?


Hey, you might be on to something here. Charge Newdow with hate crimes and send him up the river for as long as we possibly can! That would be a great start to solving a lot of the Church vs. State problem.
on Dec 10, 2005
Wow...EXCELLENT article!
on Dec 10, 2005

Newdow with hate crimes and send him up the river for as long as we possibly can!

I like the way you think!

on Dec 11, 2005
That being said, I think the American Atheists have a lot of nerve sewing the state of Utah for crosses. This is a state where the idiots at that ACLU sued for hate mongering "ministers'" "right" to heckle weddings on private church property. Apparently to the braindead oafs calling a screaming "WHORE" at young brides is protected... but crosses are profane.


oh, good point I amost forgot about that!
on Dec 22, 2005
EXCELLENT article... way to tear it apart and give perspective. Have a cookie
on Dec 22, 2005
There's actually a simpler solution to this than people realize: the crosses were not publicly funded, but paid for by a private group. The only legal "contention" that these imbeciles can find is that they are located on public land. So, the solution is simple: sell the land to the group at a nominal cost and it's private land and the suit has no merit. Of course, you also need to be prepared to sell land to atheist groups to put up monuments to their own agendas (most likely, billboards to block the view of the crosses). But then, their actions will just make them look like the a--holes they are, now won't they?
on Dec 22, 2005
sell the land to the group at a nominal cost and it's private land and the suit has no merit. Of course, you also need to be prepared to sell land to atheist groups to put up monuments to their own agendas (most likely, billboards to block the view of the crosses).

It wouldn't have to be a big plot of it, either... just enough to dig a hole for the marker.

Their claim: that a Jew, Muslim, or Atheist might drive by the marker and feel offended that a Christian religious symbol is being used to pay honor to someone who gave their life in that spot.

That gets me, too. It's not that anyone has actually been offended... they're proactively trying to protect the sensitive Jew or Muslim who might be passing by at 75+ MPH on I-15. How thoughtful of them, those insightful Atheists.

Charge Newdow with hate crimes and send him up the river for as long as we possibly can!

An excellent suggestion. But wouldn't it only fan the flames of intolerance?
on Dec 22, 2005
If New York wanted to declare itself a Catholic state and had the consent of the people, it would be within its Constitutional rights to do so. Whoa, feller! Then Utah may declare itself a Mormon state, and since it's questionable that Mormons are christian they can remove the crosses? Or New York can claim a synagogue is in violation of state law. I don't think so.
on Dec 23, 2005
I am against putting any "roadside memorials" up for any reason. I think they don't accomplish anything but cause traffic problems and accidents. I would be all for the Utah Highway Patrol building a memorial for their fallen (and would probably even be willing to donate to the effort).

That being said, I think the American Atheists have a lot of nerve sewing the state of Utah for crosses.
Good point--it cheapens the sacrifice; it's one thing to temporarily place flowers on the site of the tragedy and quite another to memormialize the spot permanently.

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