Go ahead and call me an ultra-conservative religious person, but I advocate abstinence above all . . . from personal experience.

'Nuff said.

I don't know if the problem is really about the act of sex as it is in choosing a partner.

I think that with all the talk about safe sex the focus has been on the act and not on the human element of persona. Sure people make bad judgement when it comes to getting some, but what about teaching someone how to choose a partner.

There's the tricky part, right? If all you have to do is explain the act (as if that's not a can of worms) then you get to avoid a lot of really sticky stuff about being judgemental. Sadly, I guess this a lesson that we only learn through age. And some of us not even then.

Personally, I think the act of sex is not such a big deal. It's the who you do it with that makes all the difference for the outcomes.

When my mom was in university, one of her professors said something about "would you marry the person you're dating now?" It had something to do with sex/ culture. I don't remember. I remember my mom telling me that after that class, she took a hard look at the guy she was dating and dumped him. Then she and my dad met and the got married something like 8 months later. I guess she could see being married to him.

That conversation really had an impact. If I don't want to be with someone for the rest of my life, why bother dating them not to mention sex. Maybe I could have dated more often, but the few times I broke that rule I always felt lucky when I ended it without consequence.

Frequently people put condoms on wrong (or use the wrong size) or have penetration as part of foreplay and *then* put the condom on. I think that probably happens more often than the whole breaking thing.

I hope my children wait until they are adults to have sex. I will make condoms available, though.

And I don't buy the innocent, responsible boy v. manipulative, evil, crazy girl. That's some momma spin right there.

I would love to know the %age of people who have pre-marital sex. I would bet it's a very high number.

I'm seeing this among my students. I teach middle school--mind you. Girls gone wild videos filmed on cell phones in the bathroom and posted on myspace. Eighth grader had third abortion. Another dropped out to care for preemie. Another who feels superior because her sister was pregnant at 11 and she didn't give it up till whe was twelve becasue God told her this boy was the one (he has a car). Dance moves at school dances that men in rain coats used to pay for at "gentlemen's clubs". I am so sad I can hardly see straight. In many cases the parents are complicit. They've had abstinence based sex-ed. My observations: no cool abstinent role models, no abstinent role models period, big old double standard, a firm belief that we are suffering from fogey-ism and they do too know what love is, a firm belief that they are in fact indestructible. They have asked me questions that have made my toes curl--can you get pregnant from (insert your various deviant act here)? it is true you can get bugs down there? if you're a virgin and your period stops coming are you pregnant? Do you think abortion is a sin? Did you save it for marriage? I answer them frankly and tell them to talk to their moms. They desperately want guidance and they aren't buying do as I say not as I do.

Finally, I had them list (silently)all the girls they knew that gave it up and regretted it. Then to list all the girls they knew (including me--and I'm barely cool enough to count) who waited. How many of them regretted their decision? ( I say girls because this particular class has no boys in it). Why aren't they still playing with Barbie dolls at this age?

Again, I'm so so sad.


And to the kid across the street...two words...paternity test.

I have heard the stories that Ms. Mitchell talks about, and seen a few myself.  The only 100% method of birth control is abstinance.  I have had this discusion before (where we cannot expect boys and girls to abstain).  The sad part is that in many areas, instead of teaching abstinance as an option, it is banned as being unrealistic.

IN the end, the worst thing that can happen to you is not a child.  It is much worse, and while condoms may reduce the chance of STDs, they do not eliminate it.  This is a harsh lesson for the boy.  And for the parents as well.  We can only hope that all involved learn from this.

"would you marry the person you're dating now?" It had something to do with sex/ culture. I don't remember. I remember my mom telling me that after that class, she took a hard look at the guy she was dating and dumped him. If I don't want to be with someone for the rest of my life, why bother dating them not to mention sex.

I heartily agree. More than any moral judgement, I think that this reason is more effective at promoting abstinance. Unfortunately, the example out in the world is that of parents having only a glancing notion of a relationship, living separately and comppletely disengaged from raising the child. The more kids see that example, the less weight this argument can hold with them.

And I don't buy the innocent, responsible boy v. manipulative, evil, crazy girl. That's some momma spin right there.

Yeah, lots of momma spin on this. I'm sure the truth lies somewhere inbetween. I have seen her kids and they are unusually level headed, I've also seen the sexed up little girl who manipulates everyone in sight. I don't care WHO instigated the sex...they were both complicit. And he doesn't want to be with ehr for the rest of his life.

And to the kid across the street...two words...paternity test.

That is going to be done BEFORE his name is on the birth certificate.

IN the end, the worst thing that can happen to you is not a child. It is much worse

I was thinking (but didn't ask) that since this girl was not a virgin to start...should he be tested for anything else? Sigh.

Not that this would solve the problem, but maybe the concept of a male bcp isn't such a bad idea. That is a topic for another debate.....

Rather a condom than no condom at all! I think we are being naive by talking about abstinence. The only kids who practise abstinence are those who belong to church groups or are sensible enough to stay away from the back seats of cars. Sex is a hormonal thing and I'll bet that 80 to 90 % of kids in high school/college/university are dating therefore experimenting. I'm reminded of a saying I read in a book on dating:
Kissing leads to petting.
Petting leads to heavy petting.
Heavy petting leads to sex.

Condoms do help and our kids in the new millenium need to keep them handy.

I think that sex ed is way off base.  They need to teach abstinence *and* all forms of birth control.  At the end, I think the girls need to go to "mommy boot camp".  Have them spend a week doing nothing but caring for "babies" ( see: http://www.realityworks.com/realcare/index.html ).  The boot camp should be staffed by people that will wake the "mom" up if she doesn't get up with the "baby".  The "mom" should also have to cook, clean, grocery shop and do finances while in boot camp. 

 

Rather a condom than no condom at all! I think we are being naive by talking about abstinence. The only kids who practise abstinence are those who belong to church groups or are sensible enough to stay away from the back seats of cars

The girl is a "devout" Catholic. I think it's more than that though. Kids who abstain are the ones who really understand the consequenses and are not willing to pay the price. Maybe Karma's idea is not so bad but the problem is that too many kids have parents who "help", so they don't see the long term issues....or in this case, the girl wants to get married.....but the boy doesn't.

Talking about abstinence isn't naive. Expecting kids to blindly follow orders to abstain is. I have not had sex with anyone other than my husband. I never slept with my fiance prior to HW. Why? because of the element of 1) responsibility that I did not want yet 2) I still was unsure that I wanted to be with him forever (turns out that I was right not to sleep with him) and 3) shame. Let's bring back shame to the issue. Kids should be assamed that they don't have enough self control or self respect to wait. Why do we glorify the idea that kids are unable to have any element of self control? This is a new concept. In the past, kids would be depended on for income by 16. They might be supporting family members or yes, even married. But they were required to abide by social norms and expected to find self control. sigh.

My view is this:

First of all, virgins are no longer prized as they used to be (back when their was a bride price). The promiscuous are the ones that seem to be glorified at least through attention. Cultural perception has changed drastically. Difficult to have self control when divorced mom is bringing home different guys?

Secondly, many youth today struggle with self worth. So many parents are too busy trying to better their lives don't teach their child's self worth especially in viginity.

Third, I have yet to hear someone who waited till marriage to regret waiting!

Fourth, The hormes argument is weak. As someone already mentioned:
"Kissing leads to petting.
Petting leads to heavy petting.
Heavy petting leads to sex."
No one seems to be setting boundaries. I know MANY who have given their V card and said, "I was caught up in the moment." Boundaries like walls in a house are there to protect you and others. They shouldn't be viewed as 'limitations' but as the area of freedom. Once the boundaries are put in place and mutually agreed upon both are free to do anything inside the rules and both are protected.

We are spending too much time telling them what not to do without giving them an alternative of what to do and how to act. Abstinance is great but teaching them what to do to AVOID emotionally intense moments where the plumbing is doing what the plumbing was designed to do.

Just my thoughts

oops, wrong article...

Adventure dude, you hit the nail on the head. Thanks for helping define the intent of my point without rambling incoherently like I tend to do when I run on and on and on.....

Somehow abstinence has become mixed up with religion in the minds of many people instead of the obvious common sense that it is. It is the only 100% means of avoiding pregnancy and STDs.

It's neither naive or unrealistic. There is a reason teen pregnancies have risen dramatically in the past few decades. It's because parents and teachers are no longer encouraging abstinence.

Will 100% of teens follow that advice? No, but then they never have. But unless they are taught it as a part of an acceptable values system very few of them will even consider it. Today they are being taught that they are expected to be having sex and that's the wrong message to be sending them as evidenced by the ever increasing teen pregnancy rates.

Hey Mason! I agree with you and there in lies the root of any abortion issue!

Sex is a risky thing. You can change the risk. If you have only one partner, your chances of getting an STD are a lot less than having lots of partners. So that's one choice. If you use protection, the chances of getting an STD/pregnant are a lot less than had you not. But that chance is still there. I think we tend to forget that a 1% chance is significant when it can change your life as drastically as a baby, or a disease can. I think kids are being taught that protection is all they need, and that everything will be fine as long as they use it. That chance is still there, though, and that's what we need to be stressing. I think that's why abstinence AND protection should be taught, realistically. As long as we come at it with a strong message of "You still have x% of getting pregnant/an STD when using this," at least then the consequences are still known. You can't eliminate the risk, only reduce it. Is it worth it? I didn't want to risk getting my wife pregnant when we were just dating, so abstinence was it. Never mind the religious reasons I pretended it was. I just didn't want a baby.

I will tell me kids that they shouldn't have sex until they're married, and I'll show them where it is in the Bible, and why I chose not to have sex before I was married.