shades,

I never dismissed her point of view, but, as Baker said, if what her parents did to merit CPS intervention wasn't criminal, then frankly, she should be working on laws to change that.

If we are to abolish the Constitution, or some of the Bill of Rights, as lifehappens is proposing, and allow government agencies free entry into our home without probable cause, then it needs to be done ACCORDING to the Constitution, NOT in defiance of it. The Constitution CLEARLY explains what needs to be done to amend it, it's been done 27 times since it was written, and can be done again. If the majority of the American people vote on Constitutional amendments to abandon the Bill of Rights, then that is a decision that the remainder of the American people need to accept.

Until such a time, however, the Constitution MUST be respected!

That may be because Dad hates me and told them I'm a bad person but it might be out of an underlying issue.

Actually, FOR YOUR INFORMATION, Life...we have ALWAYS told our children to be honest when they're asked questions. But lawyers know how to ask leading questions to lead intelligent adults into saying things they don't mean; try to think how much worse they could do to a child.

If you wish to live under an authoritarian government, I am sure there are a few who would accept your efforts to emigrate there. But in America, we STILL have the Constitution, it STILL stands as the rule of law, and neither your opinion or mine can stand to change it.

even those you don't agree with, and especially those who have been children in the system.

And, as I stated before, shades...I have been a child in the system as well. And one who was put there legitimately. One of the most glaring problems with our foster care system is that the state is so overburdened investigating spurious complaints and removing children that there simply are not enough foster homes for them all. This leads to overcrowding situations, "foster farms", and situations such as the family who was housing 11 special needs foster children IN CAGES.

I have REPEATEDLY stated what I felt should change about the system. I have REPEATEDLY offered solutions. The fact that you, and lifehappens didn't choose to listen is not my fault at all.

What should NOT happen, however, is for us to exist in a situation where every spurious complaint is met with a microscopic, overzealous scrutinizing of the alleged offenders while truly abusive parents escape scrutiny because of overworked caseworkers. A close study of the system will show that the current zeal of many CPS agents is HINDERING, rather than helping, legitimate investigations (check out www.nccpr.org for more information. They're a group of child protective workers and others working to change the system from within).

You appear to have completely dismissed both her point of view and the notion that CPS does any good ever.

I never dismissed her point of view,

I think you did....the way I read it you did, anyway. According to you, CPS does very LITTLE good, and consistently does a GREAT deal of harm. Life's coming at it from a different perspective (ie as a child who's family was subject to CPS attention), and you seem to be telling her that her experience is invalid because it's different to yours. I felt the same way when I told you about MY experience with CPS. Not everyone who has an involvement with CPS is undeserving of said involvement, and not every child who is removed is done so without cause. I agree that their methods are unconstitutional but....which would you prefer: a child that's removed (and thereby saved from a fatal injury) from a physically abusive home using current CPS methods, or a child who's parents fight the constitutionality of CPS methods, is left in the home because CPS can't get a warrant to search the home, and is killed by said parents? I know which I'd prefer.

I have REPEATEDLY stated what I felt should change about the system. I have REPEATEDLY offered solutions. The fact that you, and lifehappens didn't choose to listen is not my fault at all.

Actually, I have listened, to both of you. My response made no comment about CPS, at all. It was simply an observation that if you want to win this battle, you're going to have to get a lot of people on board, even those that you don't necessarily whole-heartedly agree with.

Just my point of view.

"You appear to have completely dismissed both her point of view and the notion that CPS does any good ever."

In what other area do the bleeding hearts accept the possibility of a something good at the guaranteed cost of our constitutional rights?

You're telling me that a policeman who sees someone suspicious in a subway doesn't have the right to look into their backpack, and yet CPS can go through your house without a warrant based upon an anonymoust TIP, and steal away your children with no warrant? Would the one time they found a bomb merit the ten thousand times they didn't? Imagine them stomping through ten thousand houses. CPS does it every year, probably every month.

It's insipid, frankly, to even propose such a thing. People like lifehappens validate it out of self-interest, just like someone who's mother died in a bomb attack might promote wanton illegal searches in a subway. Just because they have suffered doesn't mean our rights should be invaded.

" It was simply an observation that if you want to win this battle, you're going to have to get a lot of people on board, even those that you don't necessarily whole-heartedly agree with.

No, I think it is going to take teaching the public what CPS really is, and what powers they really have. People assume that CPS has the power to do all this stuff, so after decades they have assumed they can. Lifehappens is describing a system that only exists because local politics and corrupt government allows it to.

In what other area do the bleeding hearts accept the possibility of a something good at the guaranteed cost of our constitutional rights?

Don't project onto me your hatred of liberals, the ACLU or anyone else. I was speaking of my opinion--that's it. You want to tar the entire liberal population with it, that's your beef.

I never actually made a statement about whether or not CPS should or shouldn't do what it is currently doing, did I? I think that you assume to know where I stand because I believe that if Gideon wants to fight the good fight he's going to have to win over those who want to protect the system out of self-interest. Crazy notion, but if you have more allies than enemies you tend to get farther.

"I never actually made a statement about whether or not CPS should or shouldn't do what it is currently doing, did I? "

No, I was addressing your statement that we should give ear to people who think rights are negotiable if the outcome is "good."

Listen, Baker--I'm apparently cranky and itching for a fight, so I'm going to log off now. Hope you have a good weekend.

No problem, shades. Don't take it personally, I mean no offense.

Not personal at all, I just know when I need to step back...and I appear to be in a fighting mood today, which isn't very fun for anyone

Listen, Baker--I'm apparently cranky and itching for a fight, so I'm going to log off now. Hope you have a good weekend.

Your comments are always very much appreciated, and looked for. Hope you feel better. After all, I agree with you more than any other left of center person!

I think you did....the way I read it you did, anyway.

dharma,

No, I didn't. But my experiences with the foster care system are no less valid than lifehappens, now, are they?

How would you feel if you had to live with the fact that a stepmother who had severely abused you as a child, to the point of slamming your head against the pavement repeatedly (causing partial psychomotor seizures that I must endure from time to time to this day) was not only never even charged with any wrongdoing, but continued on as the father who acquiesced to that treatment went on to become a respected leader of his community and a prominent minister, despite the fact that you had done everything you had to notify the authorities of the action (because it was a "civil" action, they never even investigated the situation)? How would you feel if your foster parents (remember, these are the certified "professional" parents, they're not only respected, they're the ones charged with PROTECTING the children CPS removes from their home) warehoused you in a back room that doubled as a storage area, misappropriated your money, and made it clear that you were only there to provide them with an income and then go on to have one parent become a city council member despite your efforts to notify the authorities of their actions?

I have NEVER questioned LEGITIMATE actions to protect children against abuse and neglect; I have only questioned the unConstitutional methods they employ to do so; methods lifehappens is expressly justifying in this article.

As unfortunate as it is, some % of children are going to be hurt by bad parents.  Children do not belong to the state. They are the responsibility of their parents. Unless there is very obvious proof of abuse, the state has no right to intervene.

No, I didn't. But my experiences with the foster care system are no less valid than lifehappens, now, are they?

You can say that you didn't all you want to; you can even believe that you didn't. But, to me, and to Life, in the way that you worded your response, you, to an extent, DID.

I'm sorry that you had a shitty childhood, but I'm not going to get into a pissing contest about who has had a worse time of things as a kid. I'll just say that I didn't exactly have a swell time of it either - and from the sounds of things, Life's experiences were a lot like my own. I haven't let them taint my opinion of government agencies, though, and from the sounds of things, she hasn't either.

I have NEVER questioned LEGITIMATE actions to protect children against abuse and neglect; I have only questioned the unConstitutional methods they employ to do so; methods lifehappens is expressly justifying in this article.

I really don't understand what you want CPS to do, Gid. You keep saying that you've never questioned legitimate actions to protect kids, yet I haven't seen you post an article praising CPS for removing children from the care of abusive or neglectful parents. I've seen a lot of articles from you about CPS' abuses; how the agency has removed children from the care of parents who were guilty of nothing more than choosing to live a 'different' lifestyle than the rest of the population. You don't mention children removed from homes where they are regularly left unattended, unfed, beaten, locked in closets, denied access to a toilet and forced to lie in their own filth. What would you have CPS do in cases like that, Gid? Or would you even HAVE an agency such as CPS exist?

I've seen children who really did NEED to be removed from their homes saved from misery, thanks to the CPS. The parents involved are serving sentences in the federal penitentiary now.....had CPS not existed, had they not intervened...well, who knows where those kids would be now.

There comes a point at which the welfare of innocent children MUST be our main priority. Period.

Draginol:

As unfortunate as it is, some % of children are going to be hurt by bad parents. Children do not belong to the state. They are the responsibility of their parents. Unless there is very obvious proof of abuse, the state has no right to intervene.

No, children do NOT belong to the state, and I agree 100% that unless there's some indication of abuse the state should keep their noses out. However....once an allegation of abuse or neglect has been made, does the state not have an obligation to follow up and investigate? How are they supposed to do that without violating someone's 4th and 14th amendment rights? Should we view all allegations as criminal matters?

At what point does the welfare of a child become more important than an abuser's constitutional rights?